From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506011343.AA18659@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Do you like Turing? References: <3QHLK5$S72@NZ12.RZ.UNI-KARLSRUHE.DE> <60.14241.4330.0N1E4681@CANREM.COM> <3QJACB$NUD@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <3QKC07$1GS@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU> Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University Apparently-To: welsberr In article <3QKC07$1GS@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU>, Matthew P Wiener
From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506011349.AA18733@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Do you like Turing? References: <3QHLK5$S72@NZ12.RZ.UNI-KARLSRUHE.DE> <60.14241.4330.0N1E4681@CANREM.COM> <3QJACB$NUD@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <3QJEJC$N34@NEWS.KTH.SE> Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University Apparently-To: f93-dwa@filsun10.nada.kth.se Apparently-To: welsberr In article <3QJEJC$N34@NEWS.KTH.SE>, Daniel Wahlquist
From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506011553.AA19078@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Shockley update References: <3QJB0E$O92@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <3QKDCC$1GS@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU> Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University Apparently-To: ahimoe@prairienet.org Apparently-To: welsberr I've found an actual quote of Shockley's to put into the jargon file. The revised subsection now reads: (d) The authority actually is speaking on a topic well outside his field of expertise. Example: "William Shockley said, Nature has color-coded groups of individuals so that statistically reliable predictions of their adaptability to intellectually rewarding and effective lives can easily be made and profitably be used by the pragmatic man in the street." While Shockley worked wonders in semiconductor technology, his acumen in sociology was not high. From postserv@dragon.tricity.wsu.edu Thu Jun 1 14:47:47 1995 Return-Path:
From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506012146.AA20109@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Do you like Turing? References: <3QHLK5$S72@NZ12.RZ.UNI-KARLSRUHE.DE> <3QJEJC$N34@NEWS.KTH.SE> <3QKGGK$AFH@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <3QKUD8$QQV@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU> Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University Apparently-To: welsberr In article <3QKUD8$QQV@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU>, Matthew P Wiener
From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506021405.AA20732@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Do you like Turing? References: <3QHLK5$S72@NZ12.RZ.UNI-KARLSRUHE.DE> <3QKUD8$QQV@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU> <3QLCET$NDR@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <3QN1SJ$QEO@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU> Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University Apparently-To: welsberr In article <3QN1SJ$QEO@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU>, Matthew P Wiener
From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506021418.AA20807@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Do you like Turing? References: <3QHLK5$S72@NZ12.RZ.UNI-KARLSRUHE.DE> <60.14241.4330.0N1E4681@CANREM.COM> <3QJACB$NUD@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <3QLFFO$FIT@PANIX2.PANIX.COM> Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University Apparently-To: welsberr In article <3QLFFO$FIT@PANIX2.PANIX.COM>, Kurt vonRoeschlaub
From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506030222.AA22166@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: Haldane's Dilemma References: <3QGCDV$38M@DAWN.MMM.COM> <3QO00P$RC6@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU> Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University Keywords: Haldane's dilemma Apparently-To: welsberr In article <3QO00P$RC6@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU>, S. LaBonne
From source file wre_to.txt From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry) Message-Id: <9506030259.AA22273@ORCA.TAMU.EDU> Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: Re: PBS Show, "In the Beginning" References:
That natural selection will always act with extreme slowness, I
fully admit. Its action depends on there being places in the polity of
nature, which can be better occupied by some of the inhabitants of the
country undergoing modification of some kind. The existence of such
places will often depend on physical changes, which are generally very
slow, and on the immigration of better adapted forms having been
checked. But the action of natural selection will probably still
oftener depend on some of the inhabitants becoming slowly modified;
the mutual relations After ten thousand generations, species (A) is supposed to have
produced three forms, The abrupt manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear
in certain formations, has been urged by several palaeontologists, for
instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and by none more forcibly than by
Professor Sedgwick, as a fatal objection to the belief in the
transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same
genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the
fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification
through natural selection. For the development of a group of forms,
all of which have descended from some one progenitor, must have been
an extremely slow process; and the progenitors must have lived long
ages before their modified descendants. But we continually over-rate
the perfection of the geological record, and falsely infer, because
certain genera or families have not been found beneath a certain
stage, that they did not exist before that stage. We continually
forget how large the world is, compared with the area over which our
geological formations have been carefully examined; we forget I may here recall a remark formerly made, namely that it might
require a long succession of ages to adapt an organism to some new and
peculiar line of life, for instance to fly through the air; but that
when this had been effected, and a few species had thus acquired a
great advantage over other organisms, a comparatively short time would
be necessary to produce many divergent forms, which would be able to
spread rapidly and widely throughout the world.
(pp. 309-310) [Looks like adaptive radiation to me. - WRE]
Dominant species spreading from any region might encounter still
more dominant species, and then their triumphant course, or even their
existence, would cease. We know not at all precisely what are all the
conditions most favourable for the multiplication of new and dominant
species; but we can, I think, clearly see that a number of
individuals, from giving a better chance of the appearance of
favourable variations, and that severe competition with many already
existing forms, would be highly favourable, as would be the power of
spreading into new territories. A certain amount of isolation,
recurring at long intervals of time, would probably be also
favourable, as before explained. One quarter of the world may have
been most favourable for the production of new and dominant species on
the land, and another for those in the waters of the sea. If two great
regions had been for a long period favourably circumstanced in an
equal degree, whenever their inhabitants met, the battle would be
prolonged and severe; and some from one birthplace and some from the
other might be victorious. But in the course of time, the Thus, as it seems to me, the parallel, and, taken in a large sense,
simultaneous, succession of the same forms of life throughout the
world, accords well with the principle of new species having been
formed by dominant species spreading widely and varying; the new
species thus produced being themselves dominant owing to inheritance,
and to having already had some advantage over their parents or over
other species; these again spreading, varying, and producing new
species. The forms which are beaten and which yield their places to
the new and victorious forms, will generally be allied in groups, from
inheriting some inferiority in common; and therefore as new and
improved groups spread throughout the world, old groups will disappear
from the world; and the succession of forms in both ways will
everywhere tend to correspond.
(pp 327-328)
Passing from these difficulties, all the
other great leading facts in palaeontology seem to me simply to follow
on the theory of descent with modification through natural selection.
We can thus understand how it is that new species come in slowly and
successively; how species of different classes do not necessarily
change together, or at the same rate, or in the same degree; yet in
the long run that all undergo modification to some extent. The
extinction of old forms is the almost inevitable consequence of the
production of new forms. We can understand why when a species has once
disappeared it never reappears. Groups of species increase in numbers
slowly, and endure for unequal periods of time; for the process of
modification is necessarily slow, and depends on many complex
contingencies. The dominant species of the larger dominant groups
tend to leave many modified This relation between the power and extent of migration of a
species, either at the present time or at some former period under
different physical conditions, and the existence at remote I can answer these questions and grave objections only on the
supposition that the geological record is far more imperfect than most
geologists believe. It cannot be objected that there has not been time
sufficient for any amount of organic change; for the lapse of time has
been so great as to be utterly inappreciable by the human intellect.
The number of specimens in all our museums is absolutely as nothing
compared with the countless generations of countless species which
certainly have existed. We should not be able to recognise a species
as the parent of any one or more species if we were to examine them
ever so closely, unless we likewise possessed many of the intermediate
links between their past or parent and present states; and these many
links we could hardly ever expect to discover, owing to the
imperfection of the geological record. Numerous existing doubtful
forms could be named which are probably varieties; but who will
pretend that in future ages so many fossil links will be discovered,
that naturalists will be able to decide, on the common view, whether
or not these doubtful forms are varieties? As long as most of the
links between any two species are unknown, if any one link or
intermediate variety be discovered, it will simply be classed as
another and distinct species. Only a small portion of the world has
been geologically explored. Only organic beings of certain classes can
be preserved in a fossil condition, at least in any great number.
Widely ranging species vary most, and varieties are often at first
local, — both causes rendering the discovery of intermediate
links less likely. Local varieties will not spread into other and
distant regions until they are considerably modified and improved; a10, f10, and m10, which, from having diverged in character during the
successive generations, will have come to differ largely, but perhaps
unequally, from each other and from their common parent. If we
suppose the amount of change between each horizontal line in our
diagram to be excessively small, these three forms may still be only
well-marked varieties; or they may have arrived at the doubtful
category of sub-species; but we have only to suppose the steps in the
process of modification to be more numerous or greater in amount, to
convert these three forms into well-defined species: thus the diagram
illustrates the steps by which the small differences distinguishing
varieties are increased into the larger differences distinguishing
species. By continuing the same process for a greater number of
generations (as shown in the diagram in a condensed and simplified
manner), we get eight species, marked by the letters between a14 and m14, all descended
from (A). Thus, as I believe, species are multiplied and genera are
formed.
(p.164) [I think that the above is quite clear, and settles the
point nicely. - WRE]
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00000010.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506070113.AA29915@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Forrest M. Mims III can only correct spelling?
References: <3R1R0O$1O9@NEWS.IASTATE.EDU> <3R2T8D$BD3@GAP.CCO.CALTECH.EDU>
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <3R2T8D$BD3@GAP.CCO.CALTECH.EDU>,
Carl J Lydick
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00000011.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506071801.AA01216@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolution/Creation - Any Middle Ground?
References: <3R4K7O$RUN@DATA.INTERSERV.NET>
Followup-To: talk.origins
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
Note Followups.
In article <3R4K7O$RUN@DATA.INTERSERV.NET>,
Bob Queenan
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00000012.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506072350.AA01541@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Haldane's Dilemma
References: <3R4PPF$KPI@DAWN.MMM.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Keywords: Haldane's dilemma
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <3R4PPF$KPI@DAWN.MMM.COM>,
Walter Remine
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00000013.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506081303.AA02395@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: wescotds@sd2.af.mil
Subject: Re: OK, I'm ready to jump in (newbie)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3R50HR$JOS@BLACKBIRD.AFIT.AF.MIL>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Cc: welsberr
Please post a summary of responses once you get responses,
including any URL's that are forwarded to you.
Thanks.
--
Wesley R. Elsberry wre2889@tam2000.tamu.edu | Central Neural System BBS
4160 Pirates' Beach, Galveston, TX 77554 | FidoNet 1:386/385 409-737-5222
Student in Wildlife & Fisheries Sciences | Artificial neural networks,
http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/ | evolution, AI, GAs, Alife, & more
From Mailer-Daemon Thu Jun 8 08:03:03 1995
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00000014.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr@orca.tamu.edu (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506081303.AA02395@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: wescotds@sd2.af.mil
Subject: Re: OK, I'm ready to jump in (newbie)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3R50HR$JOS@BLACKBIRD.AFIT.AF.MIL>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Cc: welsberr
Please post a summary of responses once you get responses,
including any URL's that are forwarded to you.
Thanks.
--
Wesley R. Elsberry wre2889@tam2000.tamu.edu | Central Neural System BBS
4160 Pirates' Beach, Galveston, TX 77554 | FidoNet 1:386/385 409-737-5222
Student in Wildlife & Fisheries Sciences | Artificial neural networks,
http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/ | evolution, AI, GAs, Alife, & more
From welsberr Thu Jun 8 08:39:16 1995
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00000015.txt
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From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506081339.AA02576@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: ReMine's Dilemma
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Keywords: Cowardice, misdirection
Apparently-To: welsberr
*** The ReMine Challenge ***
[From Walter's original list of claims...]
WRM> 4) The problem is robust and firm -- the phenomenon can even be
WRM> demonstrated in computer simulations, such as the same one Dawkins
WRM> used in his book _The Blind Watchmaker_.
[From Walter's original discussion...]
WRM> Haldane's Dilemma is fundamentally simple. Anyone can understand it.
WRM> Anyone with a pencil can calculate it and see. Computer simulations
WRM> clearly demonstrate the problem. So evolutionists cannot claim they
WRM> were unaware. [...]
Walter establishes the appropriateness of computer simulation to
the issues posed by cost of selection in the first quote above.
Walter establishes that the computer simulations demonstrating
his point *already exist* in the second quote above.
[And more recently...]
WRM>Chris failed to show that soft selection makes evolution go faster. (In
WRM>fact, he showed it goes slower.) He has no justification that soft
WRM>selection is a solution to Haldane's Dilemma. So now he wants to pass
WRM>the matter off to computer simulations.
Pardon me, Walter, but "passing the matter off to computer
simulations" was your *initial* move, well before Chris
ever responded to you on the topic.
When will you get around to actually pursuing the matter
with anything better than vague claims?
Produce the computer simulation that you claimed above
already exists. Show us how you determine that cost of
selection is an issue. The programmers on t.o. will then
try applying the concepts that have been forwarded by Andy
Peters and Chris Colby. We'll then see whether the
program shows no change (your claim) or changed behavior
(Andy and Chris's claim).
What could be more honest in discourse than you backing
up your original assertions?
Eighth presentation of ReMine's Challenge to himself.
*** ReMine's Dilemma ***
This is Remine's Dilemma: To accept his own challenge means
that he accepts the significant chance of being demonstrated
to be wrong in a way not easily amenable to simple dismissal,
as has worked previously. To not accept the challenge means
that he would be, in effect, abandoning his prior claim that
the problem of Haldane's paradox was so pervasive that it
caused difficulties in computer simulations of evolutionary
processes. From a cost/benefit standpoint, if I were Walter,
I would quietly ignore the challenge, figuring that the claim
concerning computer simulation is not such a strong support
that losing it costs much, whereas pursuing that claim could
jeopardize the whole argument. Ignoring it also leaves open
the possibility that some will not recognize that the original
claim concerning simulation has, in fact, been abandoned.
Perhaps not surprisingly, this is what Walter has thus far
done.
From mooret@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu Thu Jun 8 11:51:09 1995
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00000016.txt
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From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506092320.AA01785@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Haldane's Dilemma
References: <3R4K30$8I7@DAWN.MMM.COM> <3R9LMH$LSH@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <3R9LMH$LSH@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU>,
S. LaBonne
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00000017.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506101255.AA00539@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: 74644.3017@CompuServe.COM
Subject: Re: flaming
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3RA5FD$S8U$1@MHADG.PRODUCTION.COMPUSERVE.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Cc: welsberr
In article <3RA5FD$S8U$1@MHADG.PRODUCTION.COMPUSERVE.COM> you write:
> I am a writer for PC Novice Magazine. I am working on an
>article regarding the topic of flaming. We are looking for
>people who have either been flamed, or people who flame others.
>We are taking several angles in this article, so any information
>or opinions are welcome.
> My name is Kirsten and you can reach me at
>1-800-544-1264. Our offices are open from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.
>Central Standard Time. The deadline for interviews is Friday,
>June 16, 1995. Thank you.
I've been on both sides of the flamethrower, so to speak, and
received flames from people who disagree with almost everything
I post and also from people who agree with *almost* everything
I post.
My own policy on flaming others is highly context dependent.
On Usenet's talk.origins and the FidoNet Controv Echo, I feel
free to respond to posts with exactly the same level of respect
that the poster gave others. In the creation/evolution debate,
this means that replies to people who claim that biologists
are essentially idiots can be very toasty indeed. On the
FidoNet Evolution Echo, I am the moderator, so some further
degree of restraint usually applies. On the GenNet Creation
echo, I participate on the strict principle of not saying
even one nasty thing to another participant, no matter how
clueless, obnoxious, or insulting my correspondent may
actually be. As a biologist in "hostile" territory there,
I have to set a good example of net participation, lest
someone should make comments in the vein of "evolution corrupts
morals; just look at Wesley's posts".
Contact info:
409-737-5312 home voice
409-740-4927 work voice
--
Wesley R. Elsberry wre2889@tam2000.tamu.edu | Central Neural System BBS
4160 Pirates' Beach, Galveston, TX 77554 | FidoNet 1:386/385 409-737-5222
Student in Wildlife & Fisheries Sciences | Artificial neural networks,
http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/ | evolution, AI, GAs, Alife, & more
From webinfo@rtis.com Sat Jun 10 23:43:22 1995
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00000018.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506121647.AA02947@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: labonnes@csc.albany.edu
Subject: Re: Haldane's Dilemma
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3RHNID$OBC@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU>
References: <3RG7PC$E9R@DAWN.MMM.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Cc: welsberr
In article <3RHNID$OBC@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU> you write:
>Lie. Your silly response to my bird/fish example shows that you are
>quite unable to imagine good arguments that "evolutionists" could
>use in such a situation. Repeating the same stuff over and over again,
>after it's been demonstrated that you can't back it up, just doesn't
>cut it, Walter. You're bucking to be the next Ted Holden. What
>you need now is a mascot for your .sig!
Maybe... "Walford the Weasel"?
|\---/|
=-\_v_/-=
;-)
"Walford sez... Never acknowledge your correspondent's arguments,
and never respond to challenges of your claims that seem certain
to prove embarrassing. And, oh yes, don't forget to chant,
'Tain't so, tain't so, na nyah na nyah na nyah.'"
--
Wesley R. Elsberry wre2889@tam2000.tamu.edu | Central Neural System BBS
4160 Pirates' Beach, Galveston, TX 77554 | FidoNet 1:386/385 409-737-5222
Student in Wildlife & Fisheries Sciences | Artificial neural networks,
http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/ | evolution, AI, GAs, Alife, & more
From welsberr Mon Jun 12 11:54:37 1995
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00000019.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506121718.AA03103@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: ReMine's Dilemma
Summary: To support his claims, or to abandon them willy-nilly...
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Keywords: cowardice, misdirection
Apparently-To: us236454@dawn.mmm.com
Apparently-To: welsberr
It was back on 950509 that I first expressed the ReMine Challenge
under that name. I'll note here that I asked a couple of questions
much earlier that are part of the challenge.
Given that the challenge has been repeated eight times previously,
over a month has gone by, and the only response has been, "hold your
horses", I'm about ready to give up on extending the benefit of doubt
to ReMine, and consider the original claims that he made which deal
with computer simulation to have been abandoned. Those are that
Haldane's paradox is a "proper and firm" problem (computer simulations
run afoul of it) and that "anybody can calculate it" (computer
simulations stated to have already demonstrated the problem).
If Walter doesn't want us to consider those claims to be abandoned,
he should come across with the following bits of information
immediately.
1) The name and reference for at least one of the already
existing computer simulations that he claimed demonstrated
Haldane's paradox.
2) The diagnostic means by which one determines that the
simulation identified in (1) actually does demonstrate
the problem.
These two items are something that Walter should be able to toss
off without further ado. (1) without (2) doesn't do anything,
though, for we would have no way of checking Walter's claim without
knowing what his criteria are for diagnosis of the problem. Either
an equation or pseudocode will suffice for (2).
WRM> Haldane's Dilemma is fundamentally simple. Anyone can understand it.
WRM> Anyone with a pencil can calculate it and see. Computer simulations
WRM> clearly demonstrate the problem. So evolutionists cannot claim they
WRM> were unaware. [...]
The claim is that already existing simulations demonstrate the problem,
and by implication Walter is aware of these simulations. Giving us
the name and how we know that the problem has actually been
demonstrated doesn't require any further research on Walter's part.
The further parts of the challenge might actually require Walter to
learn something new, but the two items above are just asking him
to support his previous claims, not to explore new territory in
simulation.
From @MIAMIU.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU:schafersman_steven@msmail.muohio.edu Mon Jun 12 12:19:49 1995
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0000001a.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506130132.AA04310@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Shockley update
References: <3QKNPH$DQH@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <95061007561013173@ATHEIST.ORG> <3RC7PS$6O3@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <3RIGU1$LIA@VIXEN.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <3RIGU1$LIA@VIXEN.CSO.UIUC.EDU>,
Albert Himoe
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0000001b.txt
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From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506130207.AA04423@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Texas Textbook Selection Alert
Distribution: tx
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
I've limited distribution to Texas.
The State Board of Education in Texas now has a majority of
creationists. Steven Shafersman of the NCSE recommends that
now is the time to get involved in the process. Biology
textbooks are coming up for review, and it is expected that
the SciCre forces will be pushing for elimination of evolution
references and adoption of SciCre texts. Public hearings are
coming up *soon*.
From Steven's message to me:
You must do two things: First, contact the Texas Education Agency,
1701 North Congress Avenue, Austin, TX 78701-1494, and ask to be put
on the current list of "Interested Citizens for Textbook Adoptions."
Specifically ask for a copy of the current Proclamation, the State
Textbook Program General Provisions, and any other relevant documents.
The latest Proclamation I have is Proclamation 1992 for textbooks to
be discussed and selected in 1994 and to be used starting in
September, 1995. You will want copies of Proclamation 1993 and 1994.
Proclamation 1993 is being used this year to select the biology
textbooks to be used in 1996. I think this is the one you want. The
public hearing for these books before the State Textbook Committee is
in July, 1995, but the deadline to request in writing to appear at the
joint hearings is in June. The deadline to request to speak before
the SBE in November is in October. I don't know the exact dates
because I don't have my own copy of Proclamation 1993.
[End quote]
The second action item is to get connected with the NCSE. The
email address is ncse@crl.com.
I've already sent off my letter to TEA requesting information,
and am spreading the news to friends and acquaintances who are
interested in keeping science in science classrooms.
Wesley
9506130.mai: Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 07:44:16 CDT
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0000001c.txt
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From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506131244.AA05119@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: welsberr@orca.tamu.edu
Subject: Well, I tried to, anyway
To: ms3a522@GEOMAT.math.uni-hamburg.de
MR> In talk.origins you write:
WRE>I've limited distribution to Texas.
MR> And it still reached Germany...
I guess that I should have said that I responded with "tx" when
asked what the distribution should be.
;-)
From welsberr Tue Jun 13 08:01:49 1995
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0000001d.txt
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From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506131301.AA05222@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,talk.origins,misc.education.science
Subject: Re: Evolution vs. creationism in public schoo
References: <3RCKNL$P3J@ODIN.COMMUNITY.NET> <3RE6JA$2AB@NEWSBF02.NEWS.AOL.COM> <3RI7GF$NP@HERMES.ACS.UNT.EDU>
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0000001e.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506131421.AA05501@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: human fossils
References: <3R5PCV$M0O@ACCESS2.DIGEX.NET> <60.15526.4330.0N1E6691@CANREM.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <60.15526.4330.0N1E6691@CANREM.COM>,
J. Moore
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0000001f.txt
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From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506140546.AA07723@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.humanism,talk.origins,misc.education.science
Subject: Re: Evolution vs. creationism in public schoo
References: <3RCKNL$P3J@ODIN.COMMUNITY.NET>
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00000020.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506140613.AA07830@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Haldane's Dilemma
References: <3RHRKM$J1P@DAWN.MMM.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Keywords: jargon
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <3RHRKM$J1P@DAWN.MMM.COM>,
Walter Remine
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00000021.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr@orca.tamu.edu (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506142246.AA09338@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: jgacker@post-f.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Re: human fossils
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3RMT2O$P42@POST.GSFC.NASA.GOV>
References: <3RK6K4$QB1@NEWS.TAMU.EDU>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Cc:
;-) ;-) ;-)
!
Oh, I'm thinking of awarding the slimiest poster each month with
a .sig that they can use...
|\---/|
Walford the Weasel
=-\_v_/-=
"Walford sez... Never acknowledge your correspondent's arguments,
and never respond to challenges of your claims that seem certain
to prove embarrassing. And, oh yes, don't forget to chant,
'Tain't so, tain't so, na nyah na nyah na nyah.'"
Of course, Walford has been inspired by one particularly slimy
talk.origins denizen. Whatcha think?
--
Wesley R. Elsberry wre2889@tam2000.tamu.edu | Central Neural System BBS
4160 Pirates' Beach, Galveston, TX 77554 | FidoNet 1:386/385 409-737-5222
Student in Wildlife & Fisheries Sciences | Artificial neural networks,
http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/ | evolution, AI, GAs, Alife, & more
From welsberr Wed Jun 14 18:03:22 1995
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00000022.txt
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From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506142303.AA09445@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Evolution vs. creationism in public schoo
References: <3RCKNL$P3J@ODIN.COMMUNITY.NET> <3RL2PL$LEL@ACMEZ.GATECH.EDU> <3RLT3S$K9J@NEWS.TAMU.EDU> <8JRPI9600IWR47YWID@ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
Followup-To: talk.origins
Distribution: inet
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: dp2p+@andrew.cmu.edu
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <8JRPI9600IWR47YWID@ANDREW.CMU.EDU>,
Denys Proteau
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00000023.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506151658.AA10901@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: gascan@dcst16.pt
Subject: Re: Evolution vs. creationism in public sc
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3RN4KQ$CK9@LSI.LSIL.COM>
References:
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00000024.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr@orca.tamu.edu (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506151658.AA10901@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: gascan@dcst16.pt
Subject: Re: Evolution vs. creationism in public sc
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3RN4KQ$CK9@LSI.LSIL.COM>
References:
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00000025.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506161257.AA15072@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Haldane's Dilemma
References: <3RQBTF$HA3@DAWN.MMM.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <3RQBTF$HA3@DAWN.MMM.COM>, Walter Remine
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00000026.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506180121.AA18043@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: Possible cures for evolutionism
References: <3RFUGS$50O@CRL2.CRL.COM> <3RS0D9$LU0@NETNEWS.UPENN.EDU> <3RUOK6$4V8@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU> <3RVKNR$1PF@CRL4.CRL.COM>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Apparently-To: welsberr
In article <3RVKNR$1PF@CRL4.CRL.COM>,
Michael Griswold
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00000027.txt
From source file wre_to.txt
From: welsberr (Wesley R. Elsberry)
Message-Id: <9506191945.AA21184@ORCA.TAMU.EDU>
To: bharper@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Chemical Evolution and its non-existence
Newsgroups: talk.origins
In-Reply-To: <3S4HA8$6GF@CHARM.MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
References: <3RQ69N$1DQ@NEWSBF02.NEWS.AOL.COM> <3RSBR6$HVO@REBECCA.ALBANY.EDU>
Organization: Dept. of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University
Cc: welsberr
In article <3S4HA8$6GF@CHARM.MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> you write:
>Author: Pierce, John Robinson, 1910-.
>Title: Symbols, signals, and noise: the nature and process of
> communication.
>Pub. Info.: New York, Harper [1961].
>LC Subject: Information-theory.
Shouldn't that be Peirce? (Assuming this is the semiotics dude...)
--
Wesley R. Elsberry wre2889@tam2000.tamu.edu | Central Neural System BBS
4160 Pirates' Beach, Galveston, TX 77554 | FidoNet 1:386/385 409-737-5222
Student in Wildlife & Fisheries Sciences | Artificial neural networks,
http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/ | evolution, AI, GAs, Alife, & more
From Mailer-Daemon Mon Jun 19 14:55:44 1995
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